Roberta Dombrowski: Breaking up with burnout

0:00 [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of what happens with trauma is that it ends up disconnecting us from other people.

0:05 [SPEAKER_01]: We heal in community with others.

0:08 [SPEAKER_01]: So getting the therapist, maybe going to a support group, connecting with other leaders as well, it really can be life-changing and energy-giving and you're dismantling the shame that you may have from the traumatic event too.

0:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to the women and ADHD podcast.

0:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Katie Weber.

0:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45, and it completely turned my world upside down.

0:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been looking back at so much of my life.

0:44 [SPEAKER_00]: School, jobs, my relationships, all of it with this new lens, and it has been nothing short of overwhelming.

0:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I quickly discovered I was not the only woman to have this experience, and now I interview other women who like me discovered in adulthood they have ADHD, and are finally feeling like they understand who they are and how to best lean into their strengths, both professionally and personally.

1:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, hello, hello.

1:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Here we are at episode 207 in which I interview Roberta Dumbrausky.

1:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Roberta is an executive coach and founder of Learn Mindfully where she helps leaders and teams thrive from the inside out.

1:24 [SPEAKER_00]: After rising quickly through leadership roles to becoming a VP in the tech world at age 29, Roberta realized her success was coming at a cost.

1:33 [SPEAKER_00]: She found herself burnt out, anxious, and physically impacted by the pressure of constantly proving herself.

1:39 [SPEAKER_00]: On the outside, she was the high-performing executive.

1:42 [SPEAKER_00]: On the inside, she was white-nuckling her way through burnout, complex trauma, and the isolation of often being the only woman or person of color in the room.

1:50 [SPEAKER_00]: In this conversation, Roberta and I dig into how her late ADHD diagnosis helped her finally make sense of her brain, her childhood, and her experiences at school and work.

2:01 [SPEAKER_00]: The overlap between ADHD, trauma, and burnout, especially for high-achieving women, mothers, and entrepreneurs.

2:08 [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about what trauma informs leadership actually looks like from day to day.

2:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Why work is one of the only socially acceptable forms of addiction and how to

2:19 [SPEAKER_00]: and how to start loosening your grip on control, micromanagement and over-functioning, without letting everything fall apart.

2:27 [SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever felt like your success is actually built on over-functioning perfectionism and people pleasing, and you're desperate to break up with burnout, but you're not sure how.

2:36 [SPEAKER_00]: This episode is definitely for you.

2:39 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, welcome Roberta.

2:40 [SPEAKER_00]: It's so great to meet you.

2:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for being on the podcast.

2:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me.

2:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited.

2:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't we start with your adult ADHD diagnosis when how long ago were you diagnosed and what was happening in your life where you started to think I should really

2:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I should really look into this.

2:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it was 16 years ago.

3:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It was actually when I went to undergrad.

3:04 [SPEAKER_01]: So I started college, RIT, Rochester Institute of Technology first time being away from home in my life.

3:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was starting classes.

3:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember it was like hard for me to stay organized.

3:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I love education now, like,

3:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it, I'm all about learning and everything, but even when I think back to like childhood, education was really tough for me and I didn't know this at the time.

3:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I learned this after I got diagnosed is that

3:36 [SPEAKER_01]: my teachers growing up actually told my mom, she was like, you know, you should really get your tested for ADHD.

3:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And my mom didn't want it on like my record.

3:46 [SPEAKER_01]: She didn't want it to be like a scarlet letter.

3:48 [SPEAKER_01]: That would be held against me in any way.

3:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So I went through all of like undergrad,

3:54 [SPEAKER_01]: middle school high school, I used to lock myself away to focus.

4:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would lock myself in my bedroom and like, everything had to be really silent for me to focus.

4:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I would get like into hyper focus.

4:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And so those really coping skills that I had growing up, but then when I went to undergrad, I was like, you know, my normal approach isn't really working.

4:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to lock myself away and like, study and something's going on.

4:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I think I need to talk to someone.

4:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And I spoke to someone in disability services because I was talking to them about getting potentially extended testing time.

4:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, you need the formal diagnosis first.

4:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I met with a psychiatrist there.

4:35 [SPEAKER_01]: They did all the testing and everything.

4:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also started medication as well.

4:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was like,

4:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, things are so much easier now.

4:46 [SPEAKER_01]: Who knew life was like this?

4:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's been a journey since then.

4:52 [SPEAKER_01]: For sure.

4:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

4:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I totally relate to your mom too, right?

4:56 [SPEAKER_00]: That idea that like,

4:58 [SPEAKER_00]: there is a scarlet letter.

5:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I live in breathe ADHD and I was very very nervous about approaching the school when I came to my kids and how they, you know, being really, really worried about how they were going to be treated and what classrooms they were going to end up in.

5:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Then it's really complicated.

5:15 [SPEAKER_00]: What was it like talking to your mom after you did get the formal diagnosis?

5:20 [SPEAKER_01]: She was like, all for it.

5:22 [SPEAKER_01]: She, like, I talked to her about it and she's like, oh yeah, we knew that you probably had it this whole time and I'm glad you're getting the help that you need.

5:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been really interesting lately because I actually gave birth to my son a year ago.

5:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I went off of my medication during pregnancy and then the whole first year of postpartum.

5:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was the longest that I had been off of my medications since I got diagnosed actually.

5:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And going through that, like ADHD, postpartum, that was something I never expected.

5:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And like looking back, I realized now like, oh, it makes sense.

6:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it would have upended a lot, but it was like my executive functioning skills were basically non-existent for the last year of my life while I was helping, like growing my son, raising my son, growing my son.

6:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And my mom's actually been really supportive with, like,

6:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you should, you know, stop breastfeeding and go back on your medication at this point in time, like it really works for you.

6:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we, we're at this point now, we can have these conversations and she understands like the impact that the diagnosis and medication has had on my life in general.

6:39 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's, it's a really interesting,

6:43 [SPEAKER_01]: Dynamic to be in now.

6:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I also think just the climate of when I was in school growing up to now just embracing neurodiversity and ADHD and stuff like that.

6:55 [SPEAKER_01]: It's more it's more open and talked about now.

6:58 [SPEAKER_01]: There's still definitely like biases and misunderstanding, but it's just different than it was so many years ago.

7:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you because I, you know, I've been diagnosed for six years at this point, and I've always fascinated when I meet women who have been diagnosed first, you know, before the like tick talk,

7:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's interesting because I was in college when I happened.

7:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And I also ended up working in disability services during undergrad too.

7:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's like, just terms that we use are just completely different.

7:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I remember we used to use terms like aspergers and stuff like that.

7:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And now we don't.

7:50 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, talk about neurodiversity in the spectrum.

7:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just different language.

7:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Now that's even being used.

8:01 [SPEAKER_01]: When I was in that environment of working in disability services, it was the first time that I was surrounded by so many different people who their brains worked differently and there was no shame in it.

8:13 [SPEAKER_01]: There was no shame that everyone was in there getting the support that they needed.

8:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was really beautiful thing.

8:20 [SPEAKER_01]: I think now with the expansion of TikTok, it's delivered to you more.

8:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, it's just, I run talking about it.

8:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, even my sister now, she talks about how, she believes she's neurodivergent.

8:35 [SPEAKER_01]: She's not diagnosed officially, but like, it came through her watching TikTok and becoming self-aware and now being able to speak about it.

8:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think you're right, like I never thought of that would make sense looking back at our childhood, so much, you look back and so much more makes sense now.

8:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think a lot of people, especially with TikTok and self education, look back and they're like, oh, it's just a different lens of looking at life now.

9:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right?

9:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, not only that, but I think it's, you know, not only looking back at all the different family members and being like, oh, yeah, you if I have this, you definitely have this, but also just sort of the impact of like how does stress and self image, you know, it's so nuanced in terms of like, would we even have ADHD if this was just thought of as neurodivergence, right?

9:35 [SPEAKER_00]: is if we looked at ourselves as neurodivergent or looked at, you know, I think I'm getting on mixed up already, but I'm like, you know, one of the things I feel like the conversation has changed a lot in recent years is this emphasis on the societal accommodations versus the individual diagnosis and that this is like a U problem.

9:55 [SPEAKER_00]: This is more of like, what can we do in our workplace?

9:58 [SPEAKER_00]: What can we do at school?

9:59 [SPEAKER_00]: How can we accommodate neurodivergent thinkers?

10:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And also talking about the fact that everybody benefits when we accommodate neurodivergent thinkers, right?

10:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's sort of, I feel like the conversation

10:12 [SPEAKER_00]: is switching more to that idea of like, well, what if way more than 5% of the population we're neurodivergent thinkers and what would that look like?

10:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, let's put the, let's remove the emphasis from like your diagnosis is based on how much you're struggling or how much you are needing to fix or change or, you know, shift.

10:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And let's look at this

10:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what's coming to mind as you say that is I think it takes it from the individualistic lens where it's like something's wrong with you, you need to fix it, which can also be very shame-inducing, where it's like, oh my god, I'm broken.

10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean?

10:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not normal.

10:55 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's a lot of shame in that.

10:57 [SPEAKER_01]: To now it's, I think there's a holistic, there's a systemic lens of like, what can we do for everybody?

11:03 [SPEAKER_01]: how can we kind of level the playing field a little bit more and just make it an experience where everyone can learn or everyone has different ways of learning and how can we collaborate and embrace creativity and embrace these different ways a little bit better.

11:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's so many different flavors of neurodiversity.

11:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I have some friends who are ADHD coaches

11:29 [SPEAKER_01]: with their clients, they don't work for me.

11:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Like some of my kind of habits and ways of adjusting for myself are just ingrained from myself and what I learned through high school and what I had to do to survive and mask and accommodate for myself basically.

11:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

11:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, what do you talked about looking back over your childhood with your sister?

11:55 [SPEAKER_00]: What were some of those things growing up that you're like, oh, yeah, the signs were there all along.

12:02 [SPEAKER_01]: My sister, so she doesn't identify as ADHD, she identifies as being on the autism spectrum.

12:09 [SPEAKER_01]: For her, it's, our personalities have always been very different.

12:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I've always been like the loud outgoing emotive child, like I want to talk about emotions feelings, all of those things.

12:21 [SPEAKER_01]: My sister has been the complete opposite where she's been very logic-based.

12:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I ever talk to her about emotions or anything like that, she kind of didn't get it or want to engage in any type of way.

12:33 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, like stick to the facts.

12:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that is just kind of a big difference between us.

12:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when she came to me about, oh, yeah, you know,

12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: She posts about the autism spectrum and all this stuff.

12:47 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh wow, yeah, that makes sense.

12:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I couldn't believe that I didn't connect the dot sooner, especially as someone who worked in disability services too.

12:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I was around so many different people.

12:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And I am like, I know the patterns and the behaviors.

13:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, I, it's almost like I was too close to my sister to be able to to see it for myself of that makes sense.

13:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I just, yeah, that's how she is.

13:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, and I think that's where masking comes in to right, which is like how much of this is presented in a way that is

13:24 [SPEAKER_00]: disabling, as opposed to just like you said, like this is just who you are.

13:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So why would I try to even diagnose you with anything?

13:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And and I think that bring, you know, that's why this conversation about like the importance of diagnosis versus not diagnosis or pathologizing, not like I'm so fascinated by all of it.

13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I was talking to a friend who's five-year-old recently, they were diagnosed as sensory seeking.

13:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was sort of this pause of like,

13:52 [SPEAKER_00]: okay and it was basically they were you know that we're having this very awkward dance around like we didn't want you know they weren't diagnosed as being on any sort of

14:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Spectrum, and I was like, huh, this feels very ableist all of a sudden, but then it was also like, huh, interesting, like, maybe if we did focus more on traits and like looking at different traits and how we can accommodate those preferences, I don't know, it was very interesting.

14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: It just reminded me of that idea of like, that we can change the language around around diagnosis in terms of, you know, I guess being strengths-based or or looking at it as,

14:30 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, less of something like you said earlier, like less of a you problem and something that you have to be ashamed of.

14:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's something that really, I feel like I've learned to embrace over these.

14:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, there I did have a lot of shame growing up in school.

14:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I always thought I was stupid.

14:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I did math was my worst subject to this day.

14:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I hate math.

14:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I am like a thoughts, feelings, emotions, kind of girl, which led me to like my career in research and coaching and all of these things.

15:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And I used to have so much shame around the fact that like the logic, the analytical side, because of math and numbers and all of those things.

15:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I was just like, I cannot focus my brain enough to be good at these things, something's wrong with me.

15:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think when I got into later 20s, 30s, I realized like, no, like, I don't need to keep trying to smush myself into this box.

15:29 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not my box in the first place.

15:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, my strengths are inherently different than everyone else is.

15:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's okay.

15:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And I embrace that.

15:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

15:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do that stuff.

15:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not interesting to me, but it engages me now.

15:48 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it took a long time to get to that more strengths-based perspective versus shame.

15:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I got same, right?

15:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I feel like, yeah, I had a lot of shame growing up too, even though I was in the gifted program.

16:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just, but I had, you know, there were a lot of things that were very difficult for me that I was hiding and felt like I was lazy and stupid.

16:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And somebody was gonna find out what a fraud I was.

16:13 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I always thought I had some kind of learning disability because similar to you, like I had really issue, I had a lot of issues with reading and I had a lot of issues with math.

16:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Studying, you know, and so all of these things where I was like, I feel like I had some kind of learning disability and so I often wonder like had I been diagnosed at a child would it have been different?

16:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I would have known these things.

16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know.

16:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I meet so many kids who are diagnosed with ADHD who just basically were diagnosed because they couldn't sit still, right?

16:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Or they were, they were like, it's the explanation for why they are a bad student.

16:44 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and we're not looking at ADHD through a string space lens.

16:48 [SPEAKER_00]: So if we're not,

16:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Looking at it that way then there's no I mean you're still basically giving kids a reason to feel ashamed about how they are and how they think and how they operate and that there's like a right way and you're the wrong way and like yeah so yeah I don't know anymore if that would have helped

17:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, hindsight's always 2020.

17:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm curious like with coaching and you mentioned on your website like a trauma informed approach to leadership and so I really resonated with that mostly because I work with a lot of business owners who are

17:25 [SPEAKER_00]: dealing with like stress and burnout of like over-functioning like you talked about, but also like micromanaging and you know, not really kind of embracing leadership.

17:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the executive functioning is affected by the stress.

17:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And so like we really work on a lot of like trauma symptoms of stress.

17:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I thought it was so fascinating that you've really like put a language to this idea of trauma-informed leadership.

17:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I guess from your perspective, how did you get into this?

18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And how do you even describe trauma-informed leadership coaching?

18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been a journey.

18:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been my, it's really started with my own journey.

18:11 [SPEAKER_01]: I worked in the tech space for over 13 years made it all the way to executive level.

18:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I was VP of user research at a small startup and I love working with people but I just burned out like I burned out by every sense of the word and I was working with my own coach and my own therapist

18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: and really digging into things about my own past and childhood.

18:40 [SPEAKER_01]: So when I talk about my coaching, I was my prime client.

18:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I was over-functioning.

18:48 [SPEAKER_01]: They were patterns and habits that I had picked up and to childhood that I was still carrying into the workplace of being a good performer.

18:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't complain, put your head down, do all these things.

19:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And all of those beliefs led to the burnout for me over time, it was like I was trying to be perfect in the workplace as this is executive, when it's like you can't do it all, you can.

19:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that really led me into my experience with coaching and I was an executive, I actually went through coaching certification program and then I ended up doing another program that focused on relational and workplace trauma.

19:29 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people that I ended up working with went through workplace trauma, they were going through layoffs, all of those things.

19:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing with trauma is that everyone has experienced it typically in some way.

19:43 [SPEAKER_01]: It might be adverse childhood events that many of us experience, but it could be things like a layoff, a layoff is very traumatic, could be losing a parent,

19:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really any time that we encounter some type of stressor and it overwhelms our nervous system in some way.

20:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Over time, the more traumas that we encounter, it can lead to things like CPTSD.

20:12 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's usually when you are encountering multiple traumas, multiple stressors, and it begins to overload the body.

20:19 [SPEAKER_01]: That is something that I have.

20:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I have CPTSD just from childhood and all of those things adding up.

20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Many other people may be undiagnosed because they just usually, when you're going through trauma, your nervous system has these fight flight free spawn responses.

20:40 [SPEAKER_01]: They just keep going most of the time.

20:42 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of executives, leaders that I work with,

20:49 [SPEAKER_01]: and often it is a result of the trauma.

20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So the trauma they experience in childhood, adulthood for some reason, it led them to overperform or to do really well, excel to be super autonomous and take charge and lead in certain situations.

21:08 [SPEAKER_01]: These are all really beautiful qualities that they gained for survival, there's also negative impacts where you're not taking breaks, you're not listening to your body, you're operating on that fight or play all the time and then you just kind of collapse and burn out and so it can be unsustainable over the long term if you end up operating at that level for a really long time.

21:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.

21:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I call it white knuckling, but just the way in which your body holds onto that stress in a way that then it's like this domino effect of like the more stress you're holding the more you're pushing through the less you're paying attention, then you're like interoception becomes.

21:51 [SPEAKER_00]: non-existent and so then it's just like self perpetuates this idea of like oh I'm just going to push through I'm going to push through and now I'm feeling like I feel like I'm seeing so many of the connections around neurodivergence and whitenuckling it and kind of the physical

22:08 [SPEAKER_00]: elements of hormonal element.

22:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, you know, the rise in autoimmune disorders in women.

22:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

22:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And just seeing how like what comes with prolonged trauma and stress held in the body is disease.

22:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, the way in which disease is showing up in women, you know, from anything from like hearing loss to fiber myalgia and, you know, endometriosis, everything in between.

22:34 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like it feels like

22:36 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I feel like the red strings are there and they're all connecting.

22:40 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, do it like we really need to reevaluate how we are dealing with like you said relational and workplace stressors.

22:50 [SPEAKER_00]: And like where do we even begin with that one?

22:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it just feels so huge.

22:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I am, when I work with clients, one of the, I just recorded my own podcast episode yesterday.

23:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I always tell clients and I said in the episode is, work is one of the only socially acceptable forms of addiction.

23:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So many of us work because,

23:16 [SPEAKER_01]: We work one in order to survive.

23:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Some of us work because we enjoy it, we love it.

23:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But we end up getting like this high from it.

23:24 [SPEAKER_01]: We're productive, we're proving our worth, our value, and then it becomes a cycle where you're rewarded.

23:32 [SPEAKER_01]: for the work that you do.

23:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You're rewarded for not having boundaries, for taking on more things.

23:38 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the system, there's never enough.

23:42 [SPEAKER_01]: There's never enough.

23:43 [SPEAKER_01]: You're never gonna get everything on the list done because we're not robots, we're holistic humans.

23:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We need breaks.

23:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it is just this system that we're in.

23:57 [SPEAKER_01]: It's been designed this way and it really is going against the system and really embracing like a new way of being.

24:07 [SPEAKER_01]: new way of being at work, slowing down, listen to yourself, listening to your body, showing up in different ways, teaching yourself boundaries and turning off, shutting off the computer, the phone, all of those things.

24:22 [SPEAKER_01]: So,

24:23 [SPEAKER_01]: When I think about tackling it on a systemic level, it becomes very overwhelming.

24:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why a lot of the time I work one-on-one with individuals, sometimes group coaching, organizational, and stuff like that.

24:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But I always say, like, I know little by little when I work with someone one-on-one, they're learning the tools that they need to be able to shift for themselves and how they're showing up.

24:50 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the other thing I have a really hard time figuring out too because I feel like in trauma spaces it feels like everybody is neurodivergent and I'm like I don't know if it's because trauma and stress also lead to executive dysfunction like that's the thing where I was there's like a chicken egg thing there, but I'm like is it because of neurodivergence and ADHD that we end up in these

25:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, situations of complex PTSD and that white knuckling it, you know, this idea that like, you know, it just feels like We're like moss to a flame when it comes to that kind of thing.

25:27 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm like, is it the ADHD that's causing it or is ADHD being caused by these environments like I think, I don't know if it can be It can be I think that's where I

25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I'm like, I think about causality and stuff like that, and I'm like,

25:49 [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't matter, I get, I get that response so often.

25:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've like, I don't know why it does.

25:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I think a lot of it is that just is that like wanting to solve the problem part of me.

26:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you want to reason, you want to source, you want that.

26:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that those are like, I've learned that this is a reminder to like, okay, that's where I need to slow down and like get back

26:17 [SPEAKER_00]: breath, and like you were saying, that kind of bottom up approach, it's just, it's like, slow down, even, you know, I've been working with it with my own coaches, been talking about this.

26:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I feel like a lot of us have this notion around white knuckling it that like comfort, safety, relaxation is somewhere down the line, and we keep pushing the needle further and further along, and then it's like we crash, right?

26:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And so our

26:45 [SPEAKER_00]: burnout, crash, repeat.

26:47 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she's been working with me personally, just on like, how do I make myself comfortable every day, you know, at the moment, as opposed to thinking it's something later.

26:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's been really, really difficult, but obviously very helpful.

27:02 [SPEAKER_01]: to think about like it's it's not this thing that is in the future right comfort safety it's right now always absolutely central yeah and I I haven't done much research into it but I have a guess that many people with ADHD probably feel like there's ADHD burnout.

27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: probably higher statistically happens in populations because we're going through the cycle of like novelty something new and then We repeat again, and then we kind of collapse and then we recover and all of that But my guess is that it is probably more high prevalent with folks with ADHD and burnout

27:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.

27:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

27:45 [SPEAKER_00]: So how do you feel like trauma shows up in leadership behavior?

27:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you kind of mentioned some of those traits, but like what's the connection there?

27:54 [SPEAKER_01]: So

27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: With trauma, people who have experienced trauma, they usually have a high sense of autonomy and control.

28:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually they've been in these systems environments where things have happened to them and so they want to take control of things.

28:10 [SPEAKER_01]: This ends up showing up is like a lot of ambition, taking charge.

28:14 [SPEAKER_01]: It can also show up as things like micromanagement, if you've had a boss who is super micromanaging, do as I say, do things this way, or they're actually delegating things to the direct reports, and then they're going back and fixing and editing, because it's not up to their standards in some way.

28:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, really hard for them to like loosen their grip, and

28:37 [SPEAKER_01]: let go and let somebody else take charge because they're usually used to doing things on their own something they had to do in order to survive.

28:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So it can definitely manifest in those ways.

28:48 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also people who don't want to pursue leadership like they've been through traumatic events and instead of being the hyper arousal, they're hyper arousal.

29:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So conflict comes up at work and they're like,

29:05 [SPEAKER_01]: and they have people pleasing tendencies.

29:07 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, yeah, yeah, I'll do anything for you.

29:09 [SPEAKER_01]: They're working over time.

29:11 [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have boundaries.

29:12 [SPEAKER_01]: All of those things.

29:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's another kind of example as well.

29:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But it really depends.

29:19 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be all of the above.

29:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

29:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think there's a connection there too in terms of like it was like a big aha moment for me when I realized that like perfectionism people pleasing that these were basically forms of hyper vigilance these forms of

29:37 [SPEAKER_00]: controlling how I'm being perceived and like he's trying to control the environment around me as much as possible.

29:44 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when I started looking at that as hyper vigilance and a trauma response, it was like, whoa, so I think, you know, even that avoided behavior is the funny, right?

29:55 [SPEAKER_00]: So,

29:56 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we then translate that into still leading because that's an I feel like another thing that a lot of ADHD entrepreneurs work with or at least the ones who end up with working with me is that like they started out as a one man band as a solar printer and they were really into something and they weren't even thinking about like growth.

30:18 [SPEAKER_00]: it was all on impulsivity and dopamine and the next thing they know they have a staff of 12 people and they are still trying to do everything and everybody seems miserable and you know they're burnt out and like we get into this like how do we start to like loosen the reins and loosen the grip of it but also still have a functioning company and like I don't feel like that's a skill a lot of

30:44 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I've done business coaching with folks before, and that's usually a lot of what it focuses on.

30:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It's first reconnecting to that vision.

30:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So people with ADHD, very creative, large visions, typically, but reconnecting with that vision.

31:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, here's where the business isn't like now, what you originally started, where do you want it to be?

31:06 [SPEAKER_01]: And then what do you want life outside of the business to look like, too?

31:10 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to be working hands down using the hyper focus always being on 60 hours a week or do you want it to look like something else?

31:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And then from there it's usually conversation about like what do you want your team to look like?

31:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I always ask people I introduce this concept of like an executive team so if you're an executive at an organization you have an executive team it could be your boss, it could be your therapist, your partner etc.

31:38 [SPEAKER_01]: We typically just don't think about it that way.

31:40 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm like, who's on your team?

31:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Who do you need to be on your team, to be able to get where you want to go?

31:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of the times it is starting to introduce like maybe a chief of staff depending on the organization or an executive assistant.

31:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody who can come in and keep the wheels turning.

32:01 [SPEAKER_01]: As things are going on in the business, a lot of executives that I've worked with love having executive assistants because they can hand off all the stuff they hate, the budget, the counting, all of those things and stick to the more creative vision setting or even sometimes sales work that they love doing.

32:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm, right?

32:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like it's like, how do I stay out of the weeds?

32:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, because I think a lot of business owners, there's their strengths, so their asset is strategy and idea generation.

32:43 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's like, how do I, like, sometimes I feel like your full time job is to stay out of the weeds.

32:48 [SPEAKER_00]: to get other people to do it and you know I always use them at the analogy of parenting right which is like our contract as a parent is to teach this little human how to do things for themselves and so like yes it would be a lot easier for all of us if I continue to like wash their hair for the rest of their life because I'm better at it and I know what I'm doing but at some point I have to let them like go into the shower by themselves and wash their own hair and do a really

33:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And then send them back over and over and over again until they figured it out.

33:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, that kind of is, I think one of the hardest things to let go of as a business owner for sure.

33:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, definitely.

33:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's something I struggle with all the time.

33:30 [SPEAKER_01]: especially this year coming out of postpartum and running my business and not having it being on medication and like no executive functioning like I have usually have a notebook that I use like every day and I'm like here at my tasks last the last year like it was just ideas and I was like jumping from one thing to the other to the other and I'm like why like I would have moments of being awareness why have you like why am I working on this again like this strategy that I've already

34:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, I would just have to be like, stop, stop Roberta.

34:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just sobbed touching it.

34:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It's good enough.

34:07 [SPEAKER_01]: That's usually like the thing that I tell myself is like, is this and a good enough spot of where it needs to be, especially as a solo per newer.

34:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'll usually move on, transition to the next thing.

34:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And so, how do I guess how do leaders know how to use like trauma-informed practices on themselves versus, you know, that feeling of like, just work harder, just keep at it, just, you know, you'll get this.

34:36 [SPEAKER_00]: All of the, all of the like messages, I think we've internalized.

34:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

34:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I would say the first things first, you don't have to do it alone.

34:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, go ahead.

34:45 [SPEAKER_01]: It's okay to go out, look for a therapist, look for a coach to be able to support you and to talk about these things with.

34:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's usually the best way to get exposure, especially if you've experienced trauma before, because sometimes you might like, for example, I'm a meditation teacher as well.

35:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes when I do like intro to mindfulness sessions with people,

35:07 [SPEAKER_01]: If it's their first time they have experience with trauma, it can be triggering, they can have a trauma response depending on their background because connecting to the breath or doing a body scan is not safe.

35:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't feel safe to them.

35:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And so usually when you're working with like a

35:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So for example, if I was working with someone, mindfulness is always one way to kind of reset your nervous system.

35:36 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm working with someone with a trauma background, I'm probably won't use the breath.

35:41 [SPEAKER_01]: I might use sound maybe all you smell or scent potentially.

35:45 [SPEAKER_01]: But those are all things we would be able to talk about.

35:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually there's like an intake portion we talk about experiences and then we'll talk about, I call it designing yourself care menu.

36:00 [SPEAKER_01]: And often times it's talking to people about things that they already enjoy or have done in the past, like maybe it's a bubble bath or colouring or there's a hobby that you had when you're a kid that you love doing.

36:11 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really introducing those sorts of things again back into your life so that you have the ability to reset your nervous system as well.

36:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So

36:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say you don't have to do it on your own for a lot of people, they're like, oh, I'll figure it out.

36:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll do it on my own.

36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't have to.

36:26 [SPEAKER_01]: There are people out there who are able to support you and help you set up the systems, behaviors that you need to be successful.

36:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

36:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think also like you said earlier that

36:38 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to be good at every single thing like lean into the things that are feel easy for us because or effortless and outsource the things that drain us is I was actually really impressed I I just finished reading Renee Brown's most recent book strong ground I don't know if you've read it yet, but it was like or if you're a fan it's I for a lot of it she talks a lot about like sea sweet and it was a bit like I didn't really feel like her target demographic anymore, but

37:08 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I really loved was she talks about the importance of coaching and how she was like going on and on about how amazing coaches is and she's like we expect athletes and you know there's certain people we just expect to have coaches and then there's other people where we've sort of The narrative around certain positions is like oh you have to do it on your own you have to exhaust all avenues on your own of every

37:28 [SPEAKER_00]: how dare you call yourself a leader and not figure everything out on your own and it was like we need to absolutely dismantle this idea that leaders should be able to do it all because that's terrible, terrible advice.

37:42 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's also probably a result of US-based leadership to the rugged individualism that we have going on whereas other cultures are definitely can be more community-based

37:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I always say that we heal in community.

37:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's been really an important part of trauma-informed leadership, too, is we go through trauma, typically, it can be done collectively.

38:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Like there is collective trauma going on in the world right now.

38:12 [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of what happens with trauma is that it ends up disconnecting us from other people.

38:17 [SPEAKER_01]: We disconnect from ourselves.

38:19 [SPEAKER_01]: We disconnect from others.

38:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we heal in community with others.

38:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Getting the therapist, maybe going to a support group, connecting with other leaders as well.

38:30 [SPEAKER_01]: It really can be life-changing and energy-giving and you're dismantling the shame that you may have from the traumatic event, too.

38:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's another thing that has resonated from Benay Brown's work to over the years is this idea that vulnerability is central to leadership and growth.

38:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And like there is no empowerment without vulnerability.

38:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if she would have said that quote.

38:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I have to look it out.

38:58 [SPEAKER_00]: But this idea that like when we are not vulnerable, we are disconnected, we are alone.

39:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And that the real strength is in being vulnerable.

39:10 [SPEAKER_00]: eliminating that shame.

39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the group work I'm sure must be really, really empowering too.

39:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have a group that's actually kicking off next month.

39:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So end of February, it's been, it's actually my first time running it in three years.

39:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to do it.

39:30 [SPEAKER_01]: But usually it is getting together a group of women around six to 10 people.

39:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's exactly what we're talking about.

39:38 [SPEAKER_01]: The people who are the high performers, they're burning out.

39:42 [SPEAKER_01]: They are good at what they do, but they want to do it in a different way

39:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we focus a lot on vision values.

39:50 [SPEAKER_01]: We do nervous system exercises.

39:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I even have a somatic coach come in and yoga teacher come in to teach practices and stuff like that.

39:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a better, really lovely environment.

40:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I love one-on-one work, but there is so much lessons just to be shared with them to be shared within the group setting.

40:11 [SPEAKER_01]: of being able to learn from each other and collaborate to.

40:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like really beautiful container that I love putting together.

40:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think also seeing other women, especially who are.

40:26 [SPEAKER_00]: brilliant and powerful and also vulnerable and accepting help.

40:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I think is probably very rewarding too, right?

40:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of the time, it's just like, how do we find ways to give ourselves permission to lean on others?

40:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

40:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

40:43 [SPEAKER_00]: But no, you're right.

40:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I think, well, I mean, I feel like I all I ever talk about on this podcast is like those intersection of like, is this

40:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I struggling because I'm a woman?

40:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I struggling because I live in America?

40:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Am I struggling?

40:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Because I have ADHD.

40:58 [SPEAKER_00]: All of you, right?

41:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think it's definitely the that individualistic nature of like, you know, our entire sense of self worth is wrapped up in how well we do things on our own.

41:11 [SPEAKER_00]: and also how productive we are, right?

41:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Like our identity is so ingrained in our warmth and what we do and what we produce, which I think is also very, you know, unique to this culture.

41:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, has your perspective changed since you've given birth and become a mom like since the last time you ran this, has, has, has, what has changed for you?

41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: a lot has changed me, I would say one of the biggest changes for me is asking for help.

41:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I've always been a planner, that's kind of how my trauma response comes up is in planning.

41:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And so like even going into postpartum, I was like, I got my list here, so I'm going to do with postpartum and then like being dropped into as like the list is gone, like the list is not happening.

42:01 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not what I need right now.

42:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's been a journey of slowing down and listening to myself and acknowledging what I need in the moment.

42:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So the whole first year that I was talking about where I was breastfeeding and now I'm my medication.

42:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Typically, when I'm on my medication, I love the written word, I'm a huge writer, I love blogging, I love writing,

42:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't like get executive functioning, like sit down and like write at all.

42:32 [SPEAKER_01]: But I could talk a lot.

42:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I could talk so much about things.

42:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like I even shifted mediums that I was using for myself to express myself.

42:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I ended up starting my podcast at that point because I was like, I can talk to people all day.

42:47 [SPEAKER_01]: This is great.

42:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it really is like a slowing down trusting yourself.

42:52 [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that's also come up to is my son.

42:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So he's turns a year later this month is just seeing the milestones.

43:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You get these list of milestones as a parent that

43:04 [SPEAKER_01]: They have to hit by specific like times and then it's like there's a lot of pressure and so like things like crawling or transitioning from sitting to crawling he was a little delayed on and so going through the process of like having an early intervention assessment for a little baby like you little baby.

43:28 [SPEAKER_01]: is something that put me face-to-face with some of the feelings around my ADHD and stuff like that.

43:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I've just, like, I want him to have the support that he needs in order to be successful versus

43:43 [SPEAKER_01]: My mom was very much like like it was a closed off growing up.

43:48 [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, no, I don't want you to have the Scarlet letter and I'm like, do all the assessments for this baby.

43:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Get him the help he wants he needs.

43:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And he's fine.

43:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He's on his own schedule.

43:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he just started crawling and doing sit to stand.

44:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Like he's all over the place, but he's just doing it on his time frame.

44:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, yeah, I love that.

44:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think sometimes we confuse like, when we talk about strength-based approaches, like, you know, I think sometimes I could get conflated with like toxic positivity.

44:19 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

44:19 [SPEAKER_00]: No, ADHD is a superpower.

44:21 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got this.

44:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing could ever go wrong.

44:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not having trouble.

44:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, no, actually like, find the support you need so that you can lean into your strengths is really, you know, that idea of yes, nothing is wrong with you.

44:35 [SPEAKER_00]: but at the same time, like, if you can make your life easier, go for it.

44:40 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing I think, like, from being the teenage girl in her bedroom, trying to focus on homework and shutting out everything and all this stuff.

44:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I went through that experience.

44:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I also have gone through the experience of, like, taking my ADHD medication.

45:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Knowing that, like, I can do it the hard way of, like, isolating myself and trying to focus, or I can take this thing that can help me and make it a little bit easier.

45:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to go with that.

45:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want to have the help and support that I mean.

45:17 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be so hard.

45:20 [SPEAKER_01]: which is I think a good reminder.

45:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I think with the like we said the rugged kind of individualism that we have in the US, women, men too, it's like, oh it has to be hard.

45:33 [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the main belief system that a lot of people have, but one of the things that I really love working on with clients is like, what does it mean to be easeful?

45:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be hard.

45:46 [SPEAKER_01]: It can be useful.

45:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Eastful doesn't mean that it's not difficult.

45:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It can still, you can still encounter difficulties, but it's not this like intensity along with it.

45:58 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, like, yeah, that's difficult.

46:01 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm testing myself, but it's not heavy.

46:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

46:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's a much better way of saying what I was trying to say, which is like lean into the things that feel effortless, because those are your strengths,

46:15 [SPEAKER_00]: and don't spend a lot of time and frustration on the things that other people could do with these.

46:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

46:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

46:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

46:25 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, is it easeful doesn't necessarily mean, don't, I already screwed it up.

46:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, what did you just say?

46:32 [SPEAKER_00]: You said easeful doesn't necessarily mean,

46:35 [SPEAKER_01]: He said, easeful doesn't necessarily mean easy.

46:38 [SPEAKER_01]: It could still be difficult and be easeful.

46:40 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right?

46:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh yeah, it doesn't mean it's not difficult, right?

46:44 [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I have a, I have a flare for butchering other people's earliest.

46:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, so if you, or if there's a woman listening to this podcast right now, and she's an entrepreneur or, you know, has a team and she's really struggling right now with, like, feeling, oh, like, she's overfunctioning and she's in that cycle of burnout and not knowing how to unclench and delegate, you know, a lot of the things that we struggle with, like, what, what's the first step?

47:13 [SPEAKER_00]: What's kind of the, where does she start?

47:16 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the first exercises that I do with people is called an energy audit.

47:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to my favorites.

47:22 [SPEAKER_01]: If you go on my website at learningmindfully.co, I have it there.

47:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's free resource you can download, but essentially it asks you to just throughout your day track.

47:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And I ask people to write down like, what are you doing?

47:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's usually what people, that's usually what we default to, it's the task space, analytical, the intense, and then who are you being as you're doing it?

47:46 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's your energy like?

47:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you enjoy it?

47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you feel Russian, hurried?

47:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Are there certain activities that are draining your energy more than giving you energy, certain groups that you're meeting with that are draining versus giving?

47:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And so usually that's the first thing that I give to people because it helps them slow down and also start to gather the awareness around where changes might need to take place.

48:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And then usually from there, we focus on values and vision and then designing some boundaries for them.

48:17 [SPEAKER_01]: Those things that you don't want to do that are draining your energy, can you give them to somebody else in your team and teaching them techniques of how to delegate and how to not kind of once they've delegated junk back into my grow managing and stuff like that.

48:32 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of minds that work that ends up being involved because some of the blockers are I got here by doing it all by myself.

48:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's great.

48:42 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not going to get you where you want to go

48:45 [SPEAKER_00]: it is usually like this ladder or I will describe it sometimes as onions layer on other onion where we're kind of peeling back things so right or at least thinking about like what is a long-term benefits versus the short-term benefits and yeah I think it's like is this aligning with my long-term values by micromanaging right now no yep exactly exactly and

49:10 [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people, a lot of business owners I work with.

49:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I had one business owner, he runs two businesses, he's a real estate owner, he owns his real estate company, and then he just started another business.

49:21 [SPEAKER_01]: He was already burned out before he even started the second business.

49:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But long-term vision is like he wants to be there for his kids, his grandkids, he wants to go on vacations and stuff like that.

49:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when the day-to-day the burnout keeps coming up, it's usually let's connect to that vision near why.

49:40 [SPEAKER_01]: It makes the decisions easier to make moving forward.

49:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, do you work with clients who aren't necessarily in charge, who are kind of feeling burnt out by an overbearing over demanding boss?

49:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I do, yeah.

49:57 [SPEAKER_01]: So I work with individual contributors.

49:59 [SPEAKER_01]: They're usually like senior levels.

50:01 [SPEAKER_01]: So like senior ICs, all the way up through executives founders as well.

50:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I always say, I think their epists say the same thing.

50:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like usually that people who are getting help are going there for the people in their lives who are not getting help.

50:19 [SPEAKER_01]: So, a lot of the times some of the techniques that I'm teaching like the senior I see's, and even some of the managers too.

50:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It's how to have conversations with difficult people.

50:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, a lot of patterns too are not a lot of narcissists and leadership that are in leadership for the wrong thing.

50:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And so how do you deal with those people for some folks and ends up being transitioning to different workplaces or even starting their own businesses too?

50:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, really depends.

50:52 [SPEAKER_00]: jumping from the frying pan to the fire, but yeah, right?

50:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So you have a lot of really great free resources on your website too.

51:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you also have your podcast in her words, right?

51:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, which is phenomenal and keep doing that.

51:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I know, but podcasting is a one way ticket to burn out.

51:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's a really good lesson in like outsourcing the stuff that is frustrating, frustrating versus doing the step that's fun, which is the talk.

51:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, where I'm like, I think I found my groove when I decided that the only thing I wanted to do was the fun parts and the stuff that stop being fun.

51:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

51:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

51:31 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, you also have the reclamation journal, too.

51:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that is a great first resource for anybody.

51:39 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are feeling burned out, your over performer, you're highly ambitious, but you're feeling burned out.

51:46 [SPEAKER_01]: this is just some prompts to help you reflect on why you motivated to work in the first place and then some of your values envisioning work like you talked about.

51:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's a really great first exercise too in addition to the energy audit that I mentioned.

52:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's interesting because I've just been a reading another book called Trauma Stewardship, which is a very popular book for therapists who work in crisis, basically like, lost the word for it.

52:13 [SPEAKER_00]: But experiencing by curious, Trauma through therapy and kind of self- how to have sustainable self-care.

52:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's one of those books where I'm like, God, I feel like every woman I've ever met needs to read this, because being a woman is so traumatic that like,

52:29 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's such an emphasis on self-care, but one of the first questions she asks people in the helping professions, because it's not just therapists, it's really anybody, you know, ER work, all of that is like, get really clear about why you do what you do, you know, and then move from there.

52:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a really big, it was a really hard prop, like it was a hard question to be like, why are you doing this?

52:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

52:52 [SPEAKER_00]: because I had to face a lot of people pleasing and, you know, I felt like I had to face a lot of those uncomfortable like micro management and like desire for, you know, proving my worth and, you know, a lot of that stuff that was like, oh, there was some good props.

53:09 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think, yeah, really getting clear about like,

53:12 [SPEAKER_00]: why you're doing what you're doing is important.

53:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, a lot of leaders and workers in general don't stop to slow down and ask themselves that.

53:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Or when they did ask themselves that, it was a really long time ago.

53:26 [SPEAKER_01]: It was like when they first started their career, not where they are now.

53:29 [SPEAKER_01]: And so some of the activities reflection prompts that I have,

53:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I usually talk lines like, hey, like, add just a calendar reminder, you can revisit it.

53:39 [SPEAKER_01]: We have different seasons of life and things that come up and your values and all of these beliefs will shift over time depending on the season that you're in.

53:49 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had that season where I was like super intense, executive.

53:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I have the season where now I'm a mom and I have a business and life shifts along the way.

53:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, I love that.

54:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And I needed that reminder too, because I've sort of, you know, I went back to grad school and basically threw a grenade into the middle of my fist.

54:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been really kind of allowing myself to be in this season, um, while trying to like hold onto everything that was already taking up so much time and effort.

54:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, I could just throw this into the mix and really having to like,

54:22 [SPEAKER_00]: see priorities and let going of things and shifting but also it's like priorities are shifting and things are moving into backburners but they're not necessarily like going away forever but yeah it's really hard to kind of hold on to that and I think with ADHD and even just like executive function around like working memory and that fear of like forgetting things exist straight with our to-do lists yeah yeah

54:47 [SPEAKER_00]: has shown up in really fascinating ways.

54:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So I just, this has been an amazing conversation.

54:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Roberta.

54:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I can't believe this hour flew by.

54:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for your time.

54:58 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love what you're doing and what you're putting out there.

55:02 [SPEAKER_00]: So is there anything else that you want to make sure we mentioned before the end of the,

55:08 [SPEAKER_00]: this episode?

55:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

55:11 [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to learn more, you can go to learnmindfully.co.

55:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have free resources, articles, and stuff like that, but would love to hear from you.

55:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and assuming you're going to have more group

55:26 [SPEAKER_00]: sessions in the future for 2026?

55:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the group program will be kicking off at the end of February.

55:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Not sure when this episode will come out, but I will have another group later in the end of summer early fall as well.

55:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, okay, great!

55:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, I'll have all the links to your website and the audits and the reclamation journal and everything.

55:51 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's all on your site.

55:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you.

55:53 [SPEAKER_00]: This has been really lovely.

55:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.

55:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

56:02 [SPEAKER_00]: There you have it!

56:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening and I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the Women and ADHD podcast.

56:08 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to find out more about me and my coaching programs, head over to women and ADHD.com.

56:14 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a woman who was diagnosed with ADHD and you'd like to apply to be a guest on this podcast, visit women and ADHD.com slash podcast guest and you can find that link in the episode's show.

56:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you know we ADHD are brave feedback.

56:27 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would really appreciate hearing from you, the listener.

56:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Please take a moment to leave me a review on Apple Podcasts or audible.

56:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And if that feels like too much and I totally get it, please just take a few seconds right now to give me a five-star rating.

56:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Or share this episode on your own social media to help reach more women who maybe have yet to discover and lean into this gift of neurodivergency.

56:49 [SPEAKER_00]: And they may be struggling and they don't even know why.

56:51 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you next time when I interview another amazing woman who discovered she's not lazy or crazy or broken, but she has ADHD and she's now on the path to understanding her neurodivergent mind and finally using this gift to her advantage.

57:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Take care till then!